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3 Cocktails In
Addicting conversations between friends who have been there, done that and still want more.
We are 3 friends who got this crazy idea to start a podcast based on our friendships, family lives, professional lives and experiences! This idea kept coming up in our conversations, especially after a cocktail or two or maybe three, and we finally decided to ACT on it!
We don't claim to be experts on too many things, but friendship? Well, we've got that down. We're making our way through major life changes, searching for work that excites us, busting myths associated with 'old' people, and keeping a sense of humor about it all.
Self employed, boss - CHECK
Mom, wife, single - CHECK
Rural, suburban, urban life - CHECK
Vodka, gin, wine - CHECK
Make sure to subscribe to our channel ~ FOMO is real and it sucks.
Amy, Kitty & Stacey
P.S. Isn't our intro music great?! Yah, we think so too. Thank you, Ivy States for "I Got That Wow".
3 Cocktails In
Forgiveness Isn't Forgetting. It's Freedom!
Ever held onto a grudge only to realize it was weighing you down more than the person who hurt you? In this illuminating conversation with our friend Deanna, a certified faith-based counselor, we unpack what forgiveness truly means and why it's critical for our emotional health.
Forgiveness isn't about pretending nothing happened. As Deanna explains, it's making "a commitment to no longer hold the offender to a standard of moral liability before you." In other words, it's letting them off YOUR hook of justice – not eliminating consequences altogether. This distinction completely changed our understanding of what it means to forgive.
The cost of unforgiveness is steep. Deanna walks us through the emotional ladder we climb when we refuse to forgive: from hurt to anger to resentment to bitterness and finally to hatred. Meanwhile, the person who wronged us is often "tripping through the tulips," completely unaffected by our internal turmoil. When we grasp this reality, forgiveness becomes an act of self-liberation rather than a gift to the offender.
We tackle tough questions you've probably wrestled with: Should we forgive people who don't think they've done anything wrong? Is "forgive and forget" actually possible? How do you forgive someone who's no longer in your life? And how does setting boundaries play into the forgiveness process? Deanna's insights on these questions are both practical and profound.
Whether you're struggling to forgive someone who deeply hurt you, wondering if you should reconcile after betrayal, or simply curious about what healthy forgiveness really looks like, this conversation offers a roadmap for moving forward. As Deanna reminds us, "Forgiveness is worth it. Forgiveness is necessary. All relationships flourish with it."
Amy, Kitty & Stacey
P.S. Isn't our intro music great?! Yah, we think so too. Thank you, Ivy States for "I Got That Wow".
All right, all right. Ooh, look I got that. Wow, who wants some heads up right now? We got that. Turn it up loud. I know you're wondering how I got that.
Speaker 2:Wow, here I go, here I go, coming. I can't ever stop. I'm a tour de force running. Get me to the top. I don't need an invitation. I'm about to start a celebration.
Speaker 3:There she is. Hello friends, good evening, hello, good evening.
Speaker 4:Good morning. Or whatever it is that you're listening.
Speaker 3:No matter what day or time. We hope everyone is well. We are here for another episode of Three Cocktails In. Amy Stacey and myself we gather weekly. So just a reminder our episodes drop every Thursday. They are dropped at the wee hours of the morning, so build us in to your day, on Thursday or Friday or whenever you might be listening, and please do share with your friends. We cover lots of different topics and today's is going to be great. Are you guys ready?
Speaker 5:I am. It's always interesting to get super psyched to talk to somebody, especially somebody like our guest today. Yes, people that would be apprehensive about it, but not us.
Speaker 3:We are brave souls. We are brave souls, well, and so you know we. We've been doing this now for what? Two and a half years, and one and a half.
Speaker 3:Okay, we're coming on two years. Okay, we're coming on two years and it is not easy to come up with topics. So we have planning sessions, the three of us have planning sessions, and we dump a whole bunch of topics and then we we whittled them down. Um, and some of these more meatier, some of these meatier topics really do require bringing somebody from the outside in, because we're curious about it, like we're not the experts here. We don't have this expertise. So that's what we're doing again today, and we're just always so thrilled to bring in people who can help guide us and teach us some of these things. So today we're going to be talking about forgiveness.
Speaker 3:Forgiveness is a word that we hear often, but I think few of us really understand what it asks of us. Right, we've all been hurt, we've all been betrayed, we've all struggled to let go of something. If you can say yes to those things, even just one of them, this episode is going to be for you. So we are bringing back our friend Deanna. Doctor Deanna is a certified faith-based counselor. We've brought her in to talk about what forgiveness really is, what it isn't, and how it can transform our emotional health, our relationships and our future. So this is going to be tender, I think, and it might just be the change that some of us need for healing. So, with all of that being said, deanna, welcome back to three cocktails in. We are thrilled that you're here.
Speaker 6:Oh, thanks so much. Hello everyone, glad to be back.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for your time. I know that you are stretched thin with your clients and such, so we appreciate the time. Of course, this is a topic that you dig into, I'm sure, on a regular basis. So let's start at the foundation and really talk about what forgiveness is and why is it important it's an important question first, and then I'll segue into what it is.
Speaker 6:I think forgiveness is important because it's really truly the only way to have completely unhinged and life-giving relationships, and so if there's ever a barrier because I've hurt somebody or somebody has hurt me, that's literally an impasse in how intimate, how trusting, how respectful, how transparent we're going to be in this relationship. And so I think one of the main reasons forgiveness is so important is because it creates this bridge, this pathway for both of us in relationship to easily move back and forth, and if we can do that, then respect and intimacy and transparency continues to build. Now, if I'm going to be selfish, in my view of forgiveness, it also aids me in emotional freedom. I don't feel hampered, I don't feel bound and anchored down by something that might've occurred two weeks ago, two years ago, 20 years ago, because I've moved in forgiveness, at least in my attitude, maybe not in actions towards the person who offended, but at least in my attitude. I've released this. So for me personally, there's this emotional freedom, but I also think there's mental freedom. You're not chewing on this and constantly obsessing for lack of a better word about how painful it was, how unfair it was, and if we're talking about forgiveness because somebody has actually really hurt us or offended us or wronged us, we're not talking about forgiveness because you took my parking spot at the grocery store, and so I just think there's real ability for us to build a bridge relationally that just keeps expanding and widening and lengthening if we practice forgiveness. I think that's the main reason why it's so important. Now, what it is, it's pretty costly, hard and requires a whole lot of humility.
Speaker 6:In counseling, I tell my clients all the time to think of forgiveness as a legal term, and so it's you, the person who's been offended, making a commitment to no longer hold the offender to a standard of moral liability before you. Now that seems a little heavy, so let's lighten that up. It simply means that I'm going to let the offender who hurt me off my hook of justice and I'm going to put them on a different hook of justice, mostly because I'm vengeful, I'm a horrible judge, particularly if you've crossed me in any way. I would love to say that even as a counselor, I'm just super reasonable, super objective, quick to let you off the hook if you've crossed me. That's not true. That's just flat out not true. Ask my husband ask my friends, ask my kids, and so it's us making a commitment, the people who have been hurt, making a commitment to the people who hurt us. The people who have been hurt, making a commitment to the people who hurt us.
Speaker 1:That we will remove them from moral liability before us Now.
Speaker 6:I think there are some requirements We'll probably get into that later about the person who's actually offended me. They need to be taking some ownership and doing their part, and we'll get into that. But at at just first glance, it's simply a commitment that I'm making to let you off my hook of justice. So, because I'm terrible at it.
Speaker 3:yeah, what happens? What happens when we don't forgive, when we don't forgive?
Speaker 6:Oh, in the short term you've got a really cruddy attitude In the short term. So if I don't forgive today, today my attitude turns. I'm probably going to get a little short and snippy with other people. I probably have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder and an edge in my tone and in how I perceive you. For sure, if you're the offender, but even just people in general, over the long term say months, years you move up an emotional ladder, for lack of a better word. So think of a ladder that has five rungs. The first rung is hurt, the second rung is anger, the third rung is resentment, the fourth rung is bitterness, the fifth rung is hatred.
Speaker 6:If I do not practice forgiveness, I move up that ladder emotionally very quickly and if I'm nursing you off the hook, I become this very resentful, bitter, hateful person. And we would all we will probably be able to right now in our mind's eye think about somebody in our circle that we're like oh, I think that's what they are. I think they're hurtful, I mean hateful, and it's because they've got this edge and they view all of life as terrible because of that one hurt and offense or wrong that was committed against them maybe six months ago, six years ago, 26 years ago. So yeah, if we don't practice forgiveness in the practical, it just eats at us and erodes us. But in the relational, practical people don't want to be close to those of us that don't practice forgiveness. We're not safe, we're not trustworthy, we're not dependable, we're not soft and welcoming and inviting. And who wants to be close to somebody who's functioning that way habitually? Right? So I think it's pretty costly.
Speaker 5:I've thought in certain circumstances that by holding onto a grudge or not letting it go, not offering forgiveness, you're choosing to punish yourself Because, like you said, you become bitter and hateful. Well, the person who offended you? They're long out of the picture. Right Now, I'm doing this to myself, which is a double down of the initial hurt and the wrong, but now I'm just letting it fester. Yes, you know, not only I love the analogy of building the bridge, especially when the person who has hurt you is in your daily life, but also just to you know, make your. You've got to at some point, choose to make yourself feel better and, hanging on to it, it I mean it doesn't affect them, you're the only one that continues to get affected by it.
Speaker 5:Now, that's really simplistic, obviously really simplistic, but Well and I do think.
Speaker 6:I think it gives them power. So so, to kind of expand on what you've said, amy, how I practice it or how I move towards it is going to be slightly different. I'm going to have to nuance that based on the scope of what's been done to me. So I'm using a range of words because I certainly don't want to level the playing field. That all hurt feels the same. That's just not true.
Speaker 6:However, I do think if we're going to hold on to something we're giving the person who probably is just tripping through the tulips like they're going about their life, they're thinking everything is fine and I'm giving them all of this emotional power. In my life I'm grading every single decision based on them and the effect of what they've done to me. I'm adjusting who I socialize with, where I socialize, how I spend my money or how I make life decisions, many times based on their past, hurt, offense or wrong against me. And meanwhile they're over here living their life, having the time of their life, and so the only one, as you said, amy, the only one that's really suffering is Deanna, because I'm holding a grudge and I'm nursing a wound, and that's 100% on me. I can't blame them for that.
Speaker 3:What are so, in order for forgiveness to happen, what are some of the emotional and relational prerequisites?
Speaker 6:What are some of the emotional and relational prerequisites? Well, I think, first of all, to be humble. So I'm going to speak from the vantage point of we're the ones that have been wronged. Right now, I think, if you're the one that's been wronged, you have to start from a place of humility, and that's really hard when you've been hurt in some way or taken advantage of, or betrayed, or, literally, an injustice has occurred, a law has been broken. I think it's difficult for us to move out of the realm of that victimization and the fact that my life has just been altered by what you've done on some level, and move into the realm of that victimization and the fact that my life has just been altered by what you've done on some level, and move into the realm of hey, deanna, slow your roll. Given the right circumstances, you might have made this same choice towards somebody. So let's just level the playing field. We're all struggling, weak, broken humans. Let's take a breath here, and that's what I mean by humility, instead of just running in to bang some heads together. Get justice. Make sure everybody knows how awful Kitty was because of what she did to me. It's me pausing and trying to bring myself back to a place of wait a minute. We're all on pretty level ground here, so how should I move forward with this? So I think humility is one of the prerequisites.
Speaker 6:I think another prerequisite is that, man, I've got to be committed to relationship over my own personal benefit. We might need to nuance that, because I do believe that even when I practice forgiveness, there might be times that the relationship can't continue exactly like it used to, based on the wrong or the number of times that same wrong has been committed against me, in other words, if there's a pattern, if this person isn't remorseful. So there's lots of variables to that. But I think initially I need to be committed to the relationship over to Anna, and again that goes back to humility. The only way I'm going to be committed to I'm sorry, kitty, I'm just going to throw you under the bus the whole podcast Kitty's in my relationship being restored because she wronged me, is if I'm thinking about the relationship more than I'm thinking about how you hurt me and how it affected me. And then just a couple other things. I think we have to be realizing that it's going to cost us something.
Speaker 6:Forgiveness is costly. It usually means that I have to put down my staff of. I will get justice. I will avenge this and I'm going to have to lay that aside for the sake of moving towards somebody who is showing sincere and genuine remorse and regret over what she did or said, or didn't do or didn't say.
Speaker 6:Sometimes the absence of something can be just as hurtful as the presence of something. So, yeah, I think those three points are important. The only other thing I would add to it is that I think it's also important to realize forgiveness is not the absence of a consequence. And so, when you're thinking of a prerequisite to forgiveness, I think it's easy for us to believe that if we're truly forgiving somebody, we're just letting them off the hook, and you know well what I mean.
Speaker 6:I forgave them and so I, I just I, I I'm not going to hold them responsible, we're not going to ask the judge to throw the book at them, we're not going to hold their feet to the fire. I think that's really foolish. Yeah, for a couple of reasons. There is a natural cause and effect in place in life. Every choice has a consequence or a reaction. Every choice has a response, and if I'm going to try to short circuit that in somebody else's life, then I don't get to complain when they keep repeating that same stupid or hurtful pattern, because I jumped in and I tried to cut off the cause and effect.
Speaker 5:Oh, go ahead. So walk me through that last point again me through that last point again.
Speaker 6:So in some ways, forgiveness is one part, consequence is another. Except I'm saying that it's the same coin. It's just two sides of the coin. On one side of the coin is me granting forgiveness. On the other side of the coin is me also understanding that the consequence is going to help train them towards not doing that again. Okay, and so forgiveness isn't me expunging the consequence or the result of their choice. It's me not holding them responsible to my standard of how good I want to feel emotionally, but instead holding them to a standard of right, living, good, respectful behavior, maybe, if a law has been broken, what the legal side says that they're responsible to do.
Speaker 6:I'm a fan of holding people's feet to the fire, because pain trains us, it motivates us, pain changes us, and I think maybe one of the misconceptions in our current culture is that if you're going to forgive somebody, they're just completely off all hooks. No, they're just off my hook. I'm not going for a pound of flesh because I'm looking to restore relationship, but you violate a law. I'm definitely hoping the judge goes for a pound of flesh. You break into my home and cause damage. I'm definitely going to expect you to pay for that and make that right. I'm still going to forgive you, but you need to be trained towards not doing that again.
Speaker 4:Well, the difference is so. The difference is right. You want them to be held accountable. We're just not going to keep it within your, you know, thinking and heart and whatever against that person for a long term.
Speaker 6:Yes, yeah, which, stacey, since you're bringing that up, is really part of a threefold commitment that I think forgiveness is on our parts. If I'm going to grant forgiveness to Kitty because of what she did to me, I'm literally telling myself I'm not going to keep rehearsing that and reminding myself in my own head, but I'm also not going to keep reminding Kitty. Well, you know, you know, last week when we did coffee, you said I don't know if I want to be in that position again. Maybe we shouldn't do coffee. You said I don't know if I want to be in that position again. Maybe we shouldn't do coffee, you know, in a couple of weeks. So I'm reminding her.
Speaker 6:Well, again, we're thinking bridge building. I'm not supposed to be putting down major obstacles that you have to jump over every single time we socialize. But I think the final commitment is that I'm not going to bring it up to Amy and Stacey either. So, you know, maybe we're all hanging out together and Kitty gets up to go to the bathroom and I'm like guys, I know that you weren't there last time we did coffee, but I just can't. I just I got to tell somebody because it just hurt me so badly. And then I'm rehearsing something that I thought or I would say Kitty thought I had covered with forgiveness. Now I'm bringing it up to other people.
Speaker 6:And so I totally agree with what you said, stacey. I'm still asking for somebody to hold them responsible. I'm just not going to be the one doing it within my own heart and mind, because I can't be trusted to do that and still function well.
Speaker 3:So if you're doing those things, it's a sign that you really haven't forgiven. It's a sign that you really haven't forgiven, correct, okay, so this kind of gets to the old saying forgive and forget. As human beings, it's hard. Well, what are your thoughts about that saying? That saying is awesome.
Speaker 6:It's hard to forget. Everybody listening to the podcast. Please don't use that saying. It's a terrible saying. First of all, it's not even possible.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:So there have been so many studies over the years through the decades, about how our brains retain information and, with just a couple of patterns of practice, these neural pathways form. And now, habitually, we just respond to life a certain way. We just ingrained a pattern. Well, what is that? That's my brain going. Hey, deanna, you're going to need every ounce of help you can get to remember important stuff, and so I'm just going to help you remember all the important stuff. Well, it's really important. If I'm hurt, if somebody has hurt me or wronged me or violated me, that's important. So, guess what I do, I remember it. And so there's a difference. There's the difference between remembering and rehearsing. I remember a whole lot of really awful, painful, hurtful stuff that's been done to me over the years by people, but I don't sit around rehearsing it in my memory bank, but I don't sit around rehearsing it in my memory bank Almost like rehashing.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, going over it again and again and again, yeah, All that does.
Speaker 6:I can't speak for everybody, but I'm a pretty fiery person on a good day. So if I'm sitting there rehearsing and rehashing ugly stuff like um you're, you're not going to want to park near me, you certainly don't want to look at me funny and I probably should like put duct tape over my mouth because something is coming out and something is going down, okay. And then I've blown up multiple relationships in a series of maybe minutes or hours, because my mind was full of I can't believe Kitty did that. And then it just bleh. It comes out and it shouldn't, because it doesn't serve the relationship at all. All Confrontation does. But we're not talking about confrontation, we're talking about rehashing something that Kitty's not being given an opportunity to answer for.
Speaker 5:So this might be off kind of the outline that we talked about, but what do you? How do you approach forgiveness to somebody who has moved on? I mean, they've really moved on. They're not really. You don't really have that relationship with them anymore, and not just because of this one incident, but just because you know life circumstance, whatever. How do you approach forgiveness when there isn't necessarily that bridge or relationship you're trying to focus on?
Speaker 6:Yeah, great question. So I encourage people to think of forgiveness as two aspects, two components. One is your attitude. That's an internal personal thing that Amy, stacey, kitty, deanna are all working through and all working out up here so that we are not holding onto a grudge, we're not nursing this. The second aspect is behavior or verbiage. Second aspect is behavior or verbiage.
Speaker 6:And I tell people all the time listen, you're not allowed ever to have an attitude of unforgiveness. You're just, you're not allowed, because it's a barrier to relationship and we're supposed to be living in relationships and we're supposed to be living in relationships. However, I might not be allowed to verbalize or live out my forgiveness, and there'd be a couple of reasons for that. One is maybe the person is no longer in my life and there might not be wisdom in inviting them back into my life, for a variety of reasons. There also might not be capability of inviting them back into my life. For a variety of reasons. There also might not be capability of inviting them back in. You know, if they've moved away, I've lost touch. I couldn't even find them on social media, okay, well, now Deanna has to believe that she's not forgiving because I just can't tell you I forgive you. No, I can still do it in my attitude and let you off that hook, so to speak, of my moral judgment.
Speaker 6:But I also think it matters that sometimes people don't care that they hurt us. Yeah, and no offense. But if you don't care, I'm not going to tell you verbally that you're forgiven, because I actually don't think I can cover your forgiveness verbally or in behavior until you take ownership for the fact that you did something wrong. Yeah, I just think it cheapens the amount of hurt that you've caused and I think it cheapens the level at which we ask people to be held responsible.
Speaker 6:So I'm going to use a really extreme example. If you violate my children as an adult or as a teenager, if you violate my kids as an adult or as a teenager, if you violate my kids and I'm churning inside as a mom and my kids are churning and and they're sitting in counseling and they're having all of the side effects of the child who's been violated, my life's in upheaval. I think lots of times people are prompted to go to that person and say you know what, I forgive you Because I, as the mom, feel terrible inside, feel terrible statistically. Now I'm leaning on statistics.
Speaker 4:Statistically they don't care, and so now I'm letting them off a hook that they don't even think they need to be on.
Speaker 6:So they're like well, thanks, deanna, but I didn't think I, you know, I didn't do anything to your kid. I don't know what you're talking about. So next. And so now I have no recourse because, remember, forgiveness is making a commitment. I'm not going to rehash it, I'm not going to keep reminding the offender what they did to me and I'm not going to bring it up to other people. So now I have no recourse.
Speaker 6:And the person who hurt me, violated me, violated my kid, hurt my kid is just tripping through tulips. Yeah, that's not okay. And so to go back to your question, amy, or your statement, I think it matters that in my attitude, I'm always moving towards a place of hey, deanna, you're a terrible judge, you are not going to be objective right now, because this involves your child. You're going for flesh. You just want to end this person. You have to transfer them to some other hook of justice, not yours.
Speaker 6:I can do all of that in my attitude, but I'm going to make a pretty strong statement. I don't believe we're actually allowed to verbally let them off the hook until they actually believe they're on the hook. So you know people who write letters to prisoners and they're like I just want you to know I forgive you, I want nothing but the best for you and I'm like you guys save your letters. No, they need to take ownership first before you let them off the hook. I think that's a really important part of them humbling themselves and not acknowledging the pain they've caused, and I think we should expect people to do that.
Speaker 3:In those extreme situations like that, I don't know that I could ever forgive someone.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I mean, as we sit here on a podcast, it all sounds really great in theory, right, because we're not talking about anything real. That just happened today, on Father's Day, right? Not talking about anything real, that just happened today, on Father's Day. So, yeah, I hear that and I think that's a valid point I'm going to go back to.
Speaker 6:The purpose of forgiveness is for relational freedom. This is literally truly the whole, entire purpose of forgiveness. Now, you know, I happen to be a faith-based counselor, so I'm fully aware that my faith system strongly influences how I live my life. But even if you don't have a faith system, every single person on planet Earth understands the disconnect and the tearing that happens in a moment when we hurt each other and we wrong each other or we violate or betray each other, and so the goal is that there'd be a restoration or a reconciliation of relationship, but not necessarily only with that person, but also within me, within Deanna. I'm being restored, I'm being reconciled to trusting people believing the best about a person wanting to be open and vulnerable again with a person, a person, and so I understand that it's really challenging for us to forgive.
Speaker 6:It is one of the costliest life skills we will ever practice. But if we don't practice it it hampers all relationships Because, although I might think it's only affecting my relationship with this person now, deanna's a little bit braced for all my other relationships. I'm not actually sure Amy's as nice as she comes across. Maybe Stacey isn't really as honest when she tells me how she feels about me as I think she is, and it's all because I'm still over here not granting forgiveness in my attitude towards this person who wasn't trustworthy, and if I hold on to that long enough, it changes my attitude towards other people.
Speaker 6:I say this in counseling all the time this is deep end of the pool life skill this is. Deanna can't just tread water. Deanna can't float on her back indefinitely. I have to develop the skill of getting back into the part of the pool where I can touch or I can hold on to something, and so this is deep end of the pool where I can touch or I can hold on to something, and so this is deep end of the pool skill. People have to practice it or their relationships just continue to blow up and that's lonely.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I don't. I don't know if we have time, but maybe this there's a part two but the flip side asking for forgiveness, oh yeah, which is a biggie, and you I mean you want to ask, I know, maybe, maybe that's a whole.
Speaker 5:Maybe that's a part two, because I think that that is equally as hard talking about having to first humble yourself. Equally as hard talking about having to first humble yourself. Not only are you humbling yourself internally, now you're going to humble yourself to somebody else who may or may not want anything to do with you which is why I don't want to talk about it. Let's just stay arrogant works for me not so much um, yeah, and assume you're not hurting anybody.
Speaker 6:Works for me not so much, yeah, yeah. So you do have to start with humility Again. There has to be good self-assessment of oh my goodness, deanna, really that was completely out of line, that was disrespectful, that was rude, that was whatever. I think there has to be humility and then there has to be again I'm just going to keep saying it, telling blue in the face a commitment to the relationship. I understand that some temperaments are like listen, I've got three friends, I don't need four. The fourth one hurt me, so now they're not a friend. Good, no harm, no foul. I do understand that some temperaments aren't as given to a whole lot of relationship with a whole lot of people. But unless you're going to be a hermit and live under a rock, you are in relationship with somebody and so there does have to be a commitment to hey, deanna, you were the one that was out of line. You're going to need to make that right.
Speaker 6:And it's hard to go to somebody and say and I believe this is how forgiveness should be sought to say, hey, I was unkind when I, I was rude when I, I was disrespectful when I, I was arrogant when I will you please forgive me, I'm not a fan of I'm sorry. I think that cheapens the offense and what I've done to you. I think it minimizes the level of hurt I've caused. I say I'm sorry when I run into you with my cart at Target. That's an accident, that's an oops. But man, if I open my mouth and I, you know, pop off with some really unkind speech, that was total choice and I better care enough about you to take ownership of that and to acknowledge how deeply it hurt you. Whether I think you're way too sensitive and kind of emotionally a wuss or not, I value relationship with you and so if you're saying, deanna, that was really hurtful, or if I'm knowing it was hurtful because I know Deanna, I just need to be humble and take ownership for that to maintain the relationship.
Speaker 6:Now, please hear me, ladies, I'm not talking about somebody who regularly and routinely, is overly sensitive and is regularly coming back to me going you hurt me when you, you hurt me when you, you hurt me when and everything's hurtful. Okay, yeah, I'm well, partially because I'm a counselor, but also maybe partially because of my temperament. I'm not falling on my sword over and over again. For that we're going to have a different type of conversation and I'm just going to be really frank and very upfront and very counselor-ish and I'm going to confront your sensitivity but that's a separate conversation Amy's bringing up. Yeah, but then you have to ask for forgiveness too, yeah.
Speaker 6:So I'm encouraging us all to remember hey, let's be humble, let's just be totally willing to admit I probably did say that I probably did cause hurt there. I probably was rude or passive, aggressive or dismissive. I'd love to think I'm never any of those things, but that's just not the truth. And so if I'm humble and I'm committed to the relationship, it certainly starts as an easier pathway to come back to Amy, stacey or Kitty and go hey, I was really unkind when I said that when we were at coffee. Will you please forgive me? I don't ever want to hurt you. And then you get to choose if you forgive me or if you're like hey, deanna, you know you've been asking forgiveness for that thing like every other day. You've been asking forgiveness for that thing like every other day. It might be time for you to get some help with that, because I'm not going to keep granting forgiveness if you're not committed to changing.
Speaker 6:That's good friendship.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and nearly impossible to get in Minnesota that type of response back. You know I mean know, I mean Minnesota thing. Oh, don't you think that that'd be really hard for somebody to say, you know?
Speaker 1:you know, we've had this convert.
Speaker 5:We've had this forgiveness asking back and forth like this is like time number five. You need to get some help. I mean, that is, it would be a hard thing to say to someone. It was oh for sure, for sure. Which um brings me to my next question. So you've asked for forgiveness, you have, you've acknowledged what you've done and you know that it was hurtful to them. And they say to you I just don't, I don't think this is going to work for me anymore. Do you just work again within yourself to say I've done what I can, I've acknowledged my behavior, I'm going to try and do better with other relationships. This person doesn't want to forgive me for this, or do you? Do you try again, do you?
Speaker 6:I think it maybe depends on the relationship that you're, that you have with this person and the depth of investment with this person. So, if this is a sibling, if this is a really close friend that you've been friends with for decades, if this is somebody that you have to work with closely every day, then, yeah, I encourage people. Hey, pull back, give them some time to process, give them a few days, give them a few weeks. And if you're still going, man, no, there's still something between us. This has to be made right. Then re-engage again and provide yet another opportunity for that bridge to be laid down with another whole board.
Speaker 6:But if this is not a deep, close friendship, if this is somebody that about every two months we cycle into something like this, or if this is a person who can't seem to maintain a relationship, then you're probably not the common denominator. And so, man, if they don't want to invest, here's the deal. And please don't hear me, I'm not trying to sound harsh, but here's the deal. I've got lots of people that want to invest in me and that I want to invest in. There's a reciprocity and relationship going on. I can afford for you to walk away.
Speaker 6:I'm not going to like it, deanna's going to grieve, not only as a counselor, but just as a human. I want people to get along Good grief. I spend the majority of my week helping people get along. It matters to me, but at the end of the day, if I have to beg you to work on this, yeah, I'm probably not going to do that, because if I care more than you care, we're probably not good together. I need you investing at the same level I'm investing in If we're going to be in a mutual relationship. I understand some relationships are very one-sided and they have their place, but if this is a person who is regularly functioning this way, regularly not granting forgiveness, regularly thinks everybody else is the problem and never them, I'm probably going to let them walk away, because I've tried maybe three times, four times, eight times, 25 times and I'm not getting anywhere.
Speaker 6:It's going to hurt. But next and I'm not trying to sound flippant Again I just think there's really good emotional benefit in us choosing to walk wisely in relationships and expecting other people to do the same. I'm not talking about toxic people getting cut out of our life. I'm not talking about you're not allowed to treat me that way and I got boundaries. And no, I'm not talking about being selfish. I'm talking about the wisdom that listen. Relationships flourish when they function a certain way and when they don't function way, and when they don't function that way, they don't flourish. If I'm the only one committed to it flourishing, you know, feel free to leave, I'll be okay, I'll be okay and then I'll do the hard work and I'll be okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is a really, really important topic and an important conversation, because good relationships in your life are so healthy and when there is strife and all of these, you know, things that we've been talking about, when they're happening they can make us so unhealthy and unhappy and and it's it's good to be able to read things and listen to things like this that hopefully people take some nuggets away and they're able to, you know, really think about these things in more detail, a couple of avenues that we haven't gotten to yet and we're kind of at time.
Speaker 5:So maybe, deanna, yeah, put her on the spot.
Speaker 6:I've got no problem saying no, I'm really good at that. Okay, all right, I've got no problem saying no, I'm really good at that.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, because I feel like it's a whole separate conversation to talk about how do we forgive ourselves and how do we bring forgiveness into a long-term relationship, a spouse situation, when your spouse betrays you or you betray, or and it doesn't even have to be infidelity or things like that. But just yeah, you know what? Yeah, um, that's a different dynamic of a relationship as well.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, and you also. You, you hit on something at the very end with your comment was about boundaries, setting up boundaries for yourself, which might, you know, somehow I feel like that ties in a little bit. Maybe that's the protective shield that goes with letting somebody off the hook, but I'm not going to present that situation again where you could do it again, I think. I think setting boundaries has become one of those phrases that people use all the time and I don't always understand, not that I don't understand it, but I'd like to get to the root of it. You know what sort of thing.
Speaker 6:So I love talking about boundaries.
Speaker 3:So is setting a boundary, though could that be seen still as you're holding a grudge or you're not forgetting? Ok, I've forgiven you, but you're only going to come this close to me now because of what you did before. So is that truly forgiveness?
Speaker 6:Um, well, here's the thing. So I'm going to go back to the extreme example and then I'll give a not extreme example. If you have violated my child's, yeah, you're going to get to have relationship with me. Let's say you're a family member who has violated my child. You're going to get to have relationship with me on some level, but my children are dead to you. You won't ever in any form get access to them again until they're out of my home and able to make that choice for themselves.
Speaker 6:And it's not because I'm holding your sin against you. It's because I understand there's your wrong against you. There's a weakness there You've proven. There's a weakness in you there and I don't want to make it easy for that weakness to get displayed again, particularly in reference to my child. And so I'm going to put a boundary in place and it's probably going to be in that instance. It's just going to be a simple statement. We're going to have a very simple, brief conversation instance. It's just going to be a simple statement. We're going to have a very simple, brief conversation and you're going to know under no circumstances are you allowed to access my child in any way, ever again.
Speaker 6:Period. If you do, I'm going to make it an issue because I've got the law on my side Now. Another extreme example is we're all friends, we're doing coffee and Mina just can't keep her mouth shut and she's constantly gossiping about Stacey to Amy, and then Amy to Kitty, and then Kitty to whomever, and maybe Stacey shares something really personal with me and she says, hey, I haven't shared this with the other girls yet. Could you just keep it to yourself for now. I'm trying to figure out the best timing to bring it up to the group and I'm like, oh my goodness, of course, if you need anything, let me know and I'll be there for you while you figure out when you want to tell Amy and Kitty. And then I tell Amy and Kitty and Stacey comes back to me. She's like, oh my goodness, deanna, that was so hurtful. You said you wouldn't tell, and so maybe we make it right. Okay, we're just going to assume all the positives, because Stacy and myself are just killing this topic and we're just fantastic at forgiveness and covering and all the things, so we cover it.
Speaker 6:But if Stacy's wise, she's going to go ding. That's the third time that's happened with Deanna. Over 10 years of friendship, or that's the third time that's happened in the last week with Deanna. I'm going to stop telling her anything that matters. I'm still going to do coffee with her. I'm still going to do book club with her. But guess what? Now we talk about the weather. We talk about her daughter's latest boyfriend. We talk about the amount of jewelry she just bought from Kitty last weekend on her wives. We talk about all of that. Am I allowed to say that on the podcast?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, hell yes.
Speaker 6:And so. I'm still going to be in relationship with you, stacy. We're going to have a really good friendship. Still, stacy's just decided it's going to be very superficial because Deanna maybe isn't trustworthy and so she's going to give me some time to prove and see if I am, and I think that's wisdom and I think that's a really wise boundary to put in place.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Makes sense Wow.
Speaker 5:I feel good about having had this conversation. Okay, being able to like break down these little steps. And why forgiveness? I mean, I think we all know forgiveness is good, but haven't really thought about it quite like you spelled it out.
Speaker 6:Okay.
Speaker 5:And how to activate it.
Speaker 6:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad it's been helpful. Do you have a?
Speaker 4:short end. You know summary that you can give everybody.
Speaker 6:Forgiveness is worth it. Forgiveness is necessary and all relationships flourish with it.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes.
Speaker 6:Beautiful. That would be my summary.
Speaker 3:That's wonderful, thank you. That's a wonderful way to wrap this up. It is not easy, but a path worth exploring. Not easy, and but a path worth exploring for ourselves, for ourselves, as you know, maybe even more for ourselves than for the relationship. So, um, thank you, our listeners, our viewers, um, whether our conversation today gave you clarity, comfort, a little bit of conviction, we hope that, just like Amy, we hope you feel a little lighter having listened to this and a little bit better equipped to face whatever healing journey you're on. Deanna, thank you for your insight, for showing up. You show up for these hard, beautiful conversations and we're grateful.
Speaker 6:Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Thank you All right. Well, we'll see you all next week. Everybody. Until then, have a good week, Bye.
Speaker 1:Bye.
Speaker 3:Bye.
Speaker 1:All right, I got that. Wow. Who wants some handsome right now? All right, woo, look, I got that. Wow. Who wants some heads up right now? We got that. Turn it up loud. I know you're wondering how.
Speaker 2:I got that. Wow, here I go. Here I go, coming. I can't ever stop. I'm a tour de force running. Get me to the top. I don't need an invitation. I'm about to start a celebration. Let me in Brought a good time for some friends. Turn it up loud past 10. Turning up the crowd when I hit them with the power.
